posted many times before, but the search engine has been down for a while. Can anybody tell me what the differences are between the 7S26 and 7S36 movements other than 21j vs 23j?
Thanks.
Responses
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Search Engine is still alive and supercharged.. - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 05:45 PM
It lives over here for the main forum:
http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/search.php?action=0
And here for the Trade Forum:
http://www.larrybiggs.us/cgi-bin/search.cgi
Let me know if you have trouble with it-
The link you want is within.. - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 05:47 PM
http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/search.php?action=1&query=7s26+7s36&sort=date_descending
Hope this helps -
Terrific!!! Any way we can link it to this page? /nt - John N on Feb 18, 2005, 07:06 PM
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Just get Lee or Petew to update the New Search Engine link to ... - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 07:16 PM
http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/search.php?action=0
(The Trade Forum Search Engine link Randall has is fine for over on the trade forum itself) -
No way, man! - LeeŽ on Feb 18, 2005, 07:18 PM
Just kidding. Try the "New Search Engine" link above now.
- Thanks Lee!..nt - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 07:27 PM
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The "search" on this page has been down for me all day. That's why I asked. /nt - John N on Feb 18, 2005, 07:21 PM
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You mean network54 has a search feature =:-#...nt - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 07:24 PM
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"SEARCH Now!" at the top of this page is not working (for me, at least). /nt - John N on Feb 18, 2005, 07:30 PM
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- Don't use the "Search Now" link. Use the "New Search Engine" link above. (nt) - LeeŽ on Feb 18, 2005, 07:39 PM ...
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"SEARCH Now!" at the top of this page is not working (for me, at least). /nt - John N on Feb 18, 2005, 07:30 PM
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You mean network54 has a search feature =:-#...nt - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 07:24 PM
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Just get Lee or Petew to update the New Search Engine link to ... - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 07:16 PM
http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/search.php?action=0
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The link you want is within.. - Larry on Feb 18, 2005, 05:47 PM
http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/search.php?action=1&query=7s26+7s36&sort=date_descending
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HERE IS THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER!!! PLEASE ALL PEOPLE READ!!! (IMAGES!!!!) - Adriano on Feb 18, 2005, 09:14 PM
Hi all!
Well, I this is a question that we see every week, and as an image worth a thousand words, here it is the ONE AND ONLY difference between the 7S26 and the 7S36:
Here is the 7S26:
And here is the 7S36:
See THE THING??? That's the difference between the 7S26 and the 7S36. THAT THING!!!
But what is THAT THING????
THAT THING is, as Seiko calls it, the LOWER BRIDGE FOR THIRD WHEEL AND PINION.
THAT THING have TWO solid jewels that serve as LOWER CAP JEWELS for both 3rd wheel and escape wheel. But not exactly as the Diafix, that have with springs. So I don't know if we can call these jewels as "Diafix", but it doesn't matter anyway.
Of course, if they are cap jewels, the hole jewels need to be different than the regular hole jewels.
And because of the cap jewels, the wheels axles need to be different. I don't remeber now if the use of those cap jewels require the axles to be shorter or longer (I believe that they are longer), so, the 3rd and escape wheels for the 7S36 have the axles little longer (or little shorter, don't remember). But I'm sure they are different, because they have different parts number.
This is standard: for example, the 3rd and escape wheels for the 17 jewels version of the caliber 7006 are different from the 19 jewels version of the same caliber, due to the use of upper Diafix for both wheels. That's make the 19 jewels version to need longer (or shorter, can't remember) axles for those wheels. And there are others examples like the caliber 6106: due to the 17, 23, or 25 jewels versions, the wheels have different axle length depending if they have Diafix or not.
So here are the things, listed.
ADDED PARTS:
- LOWER BRIDGE FOR THIRD WHEEL AND PINION (that have 2 cap jewels (lower) for the 3rd and escape wheels)
- LOWER BRIDGE FOR THIRD WHEEL AND PINION SCREW
PARTS THAT ARE DIFFERENT:
- ESCAPE WHEEL (for the reason mentioned: the pivot axle lenght is different because of the added cap jewel)
- THIRD WHEEL (same reason)
- LOWER HOLE JEWEL FOR THE ESCAPE WHEEL (need to be different to receive the cap jewel)
- LOWER HOLE JEWEL FOR THE 3RD WHEEL (same)
Now, more golden questions: "What THAT THING serve for? This make the 7S36 more accurate? THAT THING is an advantage? This makes the 7S36 better?"
You know how much a Seiko fan I am , otherwise, I would not be here right now, but my sincere opinions are: "Nothing, No, No and No".
You could disagree, but in practice, they serve for nothing, and they doesn't make any noticeable effect.
And even technically and theoretically, the advantages are difficult to prove, in my opinion.
My conclusion is that THAT THING serve for rise the jewel count only, and to make the models equipped with 7S36 like something more. They wouldn't like to use the same caliber for the basic models and for the more elaborated models, so they take a 7S26, put 2 useless jewels, and call the caliber with another name.
The clue is simple: on the past, calibers of the same name have versions with different number of jewels, although the caliber name was the same. Examples?
6106 - 17, 23, and 25 jewels (25 for "A", 17 and 25 for "B", 17, 23 or 25 for "C")
7006 - 17 and 19 jewels
And note that the 6106C, for example, use exactly the same artifice of the 7S36 to rise the jewel count.
So why Seiko decided to add two jewels for the 7S26, and change the name for 7S36 instead of just say that there are 21 and 23 jewels versions of the 7S26? If it is not marketing reasons, I don't know another answer. The same is for the 7S55: the only difference from the 7S35 is the decorated rotor. Is it sufficient to call the caliber with another name?
On the past, the calibers of the same family have more decent reasons to have different names, like 6309 and 6319, or 6106 and 6119. But the differences between the 7S family are so small. But on the other hand, if they didn't call them with different names, the 7S family will have only two variants: 7S26 and 7S25 (the date only version). That's because the absence of DAY calendar is a decent reason to change the name, as Seiko always did. But 2 more jewels, or a decorated rotor are not technical reasons to call them with different names. But thinking deep, I believe that if they have only 7S25 and 7S26, if would not be even a family. So Seiko wiselly call them with different names to make the 7S family too look richer.
And in my opinion, they choose right from the marketing point of view. What's the problem with that?
That's it!
Thanks for reading. Hope it was enjoyable. And sorry for the long message, specially the long thoughts.
Best regards,
AdrianoImages in this message:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/adenoma/7s26.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/adenoma/7s36en.jpg
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Excellent post, Adriano! .....FAQ material too....(more)......>> - StratMan II on Feb 18, 2005, 10:39 PM
As usual, next to John "eightohms" and others, you are The Man when it comes to the nitty, gritty details of mechanical movements. I could never comprehend mechanical watch blueprints myself. Thanks for the detailed explanation!
To Larry Biggs: I vote that this post should go into the FAQ immediately.
cheers,
StratMan
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- Seconded! Thanks very much Adriano! n/t - rlk on Feb 18, 2005, 11:21 PM .
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Re: Excellent post, Adriano! .....FAQ material too....(more)......>> - Adriano on Feb 18, 2005, 11:27 PM
Hi! Thanks!
I think it is a good idea to put it in FAQ, maybe just the images and the explanation.
But I am very far to deserve to be compare to John "eightohms" and the other masters here.
But I can tell that I'm much inspired by John, since I read his article "A Day in Watch School" on "ThePuristS", it was some time ago. He just lived my dream. I read that article several times, and even learned a lot of tips that helped me in my attemps to play the watchmaker (I'm a hobbist). Not to count his other nice articles.
He may even not know that, but I thank him to what I know today about that subject.
Regards,
AdrianoImages in this message:
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- Great stuff...Larry FAQ... - Larry on Feb 19, 2005, 07:08 AM that gets it picked up by the Larry FAQ common search link in the search engine..
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you're very kind - ei8htohms on Feb 19, 2005, 08:50 AM
Hi Adriano,
This is a great bit of technical information to add to the knowledge base of the Seiko community and I appreciate you researching it and sharing it with us all. Thanks of course also for your kind words about my writing.
Typically pivots designed for capped jewel bearings are conical as opposed to straight. That is, they have the curved shape found on balance pivots as opposed to the square shoulder found in normal (uncapped) power train pivots. Whether or not the overall arbor is longer or shorter depends on the specific movement design in question.
If these two extra jewels found in the 7S36 are truly functional (and I'd have to assume they are), the pivots in question should be conical. This should reduce the friction in the power train a little bit in the dial down position as well as hold the oil in place around those pivots a little better/longer. These are real world advantages for the performance and longevity of the mechanism, but certainly arguably very subtle ones.
Is it a purely marketing based decision to add these two jewels or is it an attempt to upgrade the movement in earnest? Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if there are watchmakers and/or engineers within Seiko itself that would argue that.
_john-
Re: you're very kind - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 11:04 AM
Hi John!
I don't know how the pivots are on the 7Sxx, but on other calibers usgind Diafix, the pivots are not conical, they are straight. About the lenght, I noticed that comparing the wheels on different calibers. For example, caliber 7005 (17j) have different parts numbers for the escape and 3rd wheels from the 7006 (19j due to two upper Diafix for 3rd and escape wheels). I decided to take both side by side to compare: the pivots on the 7006 are not conical, they are straight, even on the Diafix side. The difference compared to the wheels of the 7005 is the axle lenght. The one with longer axle don't even fit the other movement: you can fell it is longer when you try to put the plete, when mounting it.
I found it strange too, because I expected to see conical pivots, as far as I learned.
Another example: the 6119 caliber have different part number for the escape wheel, because it have upper and lower Diafix. The escape wheel part number on the 17j 6106 and on the 6105 are the same, different to the 6119. That's the clue that they have one escape wheel for calibers without Diafix (6106 17j and 6105), and another escape wheel for 6119. I did not compared the 6105 escape wheel to the 6119, but I serviced a lot of 6119, and none of them have conical pivots on the escape wheel, despite the use of Diafix.
So I have a little impression that Seiko do not use conical pivots on wheels, even when they have cap jewels.
And the only different that I found between a caped and a non caped wheel is the axle lenght.
Any professional watchmaker ever noticed that?
Regards,
Adriano
- interesting, thanks for the additional info (nt) - ei8htohms on Feb 19, 2005, 08:08 PM nt
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Re: you're very kind - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 11:04 AM
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Thanks Adriano....just one thought.... - petew on Feb 19, 2005, 03:17 AM
Generally speaking, (apparently, this rule isn't 100% true) the third digit in Seiko's caliber naming system is supposed to denote the expected accuracy of a movement compared to other movements in the same family.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=78440&messageid=1048859921
It's possible that a 7S36 may go through a step during production making it slightly more accurate than a 7S26...hence the name change. I have no way of knowing if this is true or not, it's just a thought.
That was a great post on the subject. I have a feeling that I will be directing others to it for as along as I participate on the forum!!
This message has been edited by wpetew from IP address 4.185.138.27 on Feb 19, 2005 3:18 AM
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Follows Seiko'c current convention... - jake359 on Feb 19, 2005, 08:50 AM
excerpted from don's post:
- 1st&2nd digits: 'machine' number or movement family
3rd digit: indicator of amount of 'special adjustment'
4th digit: display type indicator
so following their current numbering convention,
the reason for the different designations is explained:
"7S" base Caliber
"2,3" degrees of "adjustment" (in this case, the addition of the plate and 2 jewels)
"5,6" display indication (in this case, date-only or day-date)
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Re: Thanks Adriano....just one thought.... - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 11:10 AM
Hi Petew!
Thanks for the input!
I know that, but to me it doesn't look like the 7S36 comes better adjusted from the factory than a 7S26. About the 7S55, that one I can believe that comes very well adjusted from the factory.
That's just my impression. I never saw concrete statistics showing that the 7S36 is more accurate than the 7S26.
Who knows?
But anyway, if the difference exists, they are like "humam intervention" difference. I don't think the parts used are better, since they share the same part numbers for everything except those parts that I listed.
Regards,
Adriano-
What's your take on the level of adjustment?......>>> - StratMan II on Feb 19, 2005, 11:34 AM
I know that, but to me it doesn't look like the 7S36 comes better adjusted from the factory than a 7S26. About the 7S55, that one I can believe that comes very well adjusted from the factory.
Adriano, when you mentioned the above, I was imagining the 7s55 movements being adjusted in six positions like the 9s55 GS movement in Japan. Could this be the case?
I wish I could find a NOS Seiko 5 Superior with the 7s55.
cheers,
StratMan
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Re: What's your take on the level of adjustment?......>>> - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 12:32 AM
Hi! Yes, that's what I mean. My guess is that maybe the 7S26 comes completelly unadjusted. The 7S36 can be adjusted in 3 basic positions (probably crown down, crown left and dial up), and the 7S55, in 5 positions.
But as they don't test the watch for days, they don't mention that the watch was adjusted.
But, as I said, it is just a guess, because I sometimes I think that the 7S36 is not better adjusted than a 7S26 due to the production volume. It is too much watches to be adjusted.
I don't know how it is made, because I heard that Rolex, for example, adjust the watches compeltelly by machines. I still don't believe, or can't believe how a machine can adjusted a watch, as it is such a job that requires experience and sensitivity more than anything else.
And I don't know how Seiko do that, if it does.
But as the 7S55 is not produced in large quantities, I think it is possible that they come adjusted, probably, one by one, by a watchmaker.
Since the hairsprings comes from the assembly line perfectly concentric and balanced, it may not be too difficult.
But the conclusion that we can achieve is that, if a 7S55 is very well adjusted, a 7S26 can be adjusted at the same level as well.
I think that the bad thing about collecting Seiko is that is difficult to get information, specially from Seiko. The only person that could assure all the things is someone from Seiko.
Regards,
Adriano
This message has been edited by Adriano09 from IP address 201.6.159.25 on Feb 19, 2005 12:33 PM
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Good reasoning, Adriano.........>>> - StratMan II on Feb 19, 2005, 02:20 PM
I've seen pics of how the Marine Masters are hand-assembled in Higuchi's community forum. That's for the high end Seikos. I wonder what's it like at the Singapore and Hong Kong plants that churn out the millions of low end automatics, quartz and Kinetic models.
Take the 7s26 for example. It powers so many models - the countless variations of the Seiko 5 family, the SKX divers, etc. We're not dealing with Swiss cottage industry watchmakers that take months to shape an ebauche into some exotic complication here. Seiko has to mass produce in order to keep their costs down and to remain profitable.
With the thousands of pieces produced each month, I wonder how each individual movement could have been adjusted. My guess is that the production engineers would just take random samples from batches and check for regulation.
You're right - it will take an insider from Seiko itself to share some secrets on how the movements are designed and why there is a need to produce the 7s36 movement, which is about the same as the ubiquitous 7s26. I don't think the extra two jewels would cost them that much.
My personal take is for product differentiation purposes - which is related to marketing. Which is why the 7s36 is mostly found on the more expensive Seiko 5 range - the Superior and some Sports models.
I wonder why the SKX divers are still stuck with the 7s26 to this day...
cheers,
StratMan
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Re: Good reasoning, Adriano.........>>> - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 07:39 PM
I am very curious to know if the 7S36 is really better adjusted.
But about the SKX, I believe that Seiko will stand for the 7S26, because they always used the simplest caliber on the Divers. Appart from the 62MAS, you can notice that the divers always used the simplest (not to say cheapest) version of the caliber family: the 6105 (it could use a 6119), the 6309 (it could be a 6319), the 7002 (no choice here, because the 7019 or 7015 was discontinnued at the time), and now the 7S26.
Don't know the reason. Maybe they will say that the simplest are more robust, but I'm not sure... a 6119 doesn't look less robust that any other 61xx.
Those things are hard to say.
Regards,
Adriano
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Re: Good reasoning, Adriano.........>>> - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 07:39 PM
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Good reasoning, Adriano.........>>> - StratMan II on Feb 19, 2005, 02:20 PM
I've seen pics of how the Marine Masters are hand-assembled in Higuchi's community forum. That's for the high end Seikos. I wonder what's it like at the Singapore and Hong Kong plants that churn out the millions of low end automatics, quartz and Kinetic models.
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Re: What's your take on the level of adjustment?......>>> - Adriano on Feb 19, 2005, 12:32 AM
Hi! Yes, that's what I mean. My guess is that maybe the 7S26 comes completelly unadjusted. The 7S36 can be adjusted in 3 basic positions (probably crown down, crown left and dial up), and the 7S55, in 5 positions.
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What's your take on the level of adjustment?......>>> - StratMan II on Feb 19, 2005, 11:34 AM
I know that, but to me it doesn't look like the 7S36 comes better adjusted from the factory than a 7S26. About the 7S55, that one I can believe that comes very well adjusted from the factory.
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Follows Seiko'c current convention... - jake359 on Feb 19, 2005, 08:50 AM
excerpted from don's post:
- I don't understand ....the difference is what?? just kidding, thx for the post dude! /nt - Ty on Feb 19, 2005, 05:49 AM h
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Excellent post, Adriano! .....FAQ material too....(more)......>> - StratMan II on Feb 18, 2005, 10:39 PM
As usual, next to John "eightohms" and others, you are The Man when it comes to the nitty, gritty details of mechanical movements. I could never comprehend mechanical watch blueprints myself. Thanks for the detailed explanation!
